ahole
Eric Zane's huge nose
15%
Posts: 45 
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Post by ahole on Jun 26, 2008 10:43:19 GMT -5
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Post by lovegrenade on Jun 26, 2008 13:57:56 GMT -5
But see, Cassierae, that's faith. You don't necessarily have tangible evidence, but you just still know in your heart that there's something more. This statement always cracks me up for it's irony. It should probably be the tag line for religions. Faith- Knowing in your heart, while viciously ignoring what's in your head. |
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Post by Zig on Jun 26, 2008 14:17:05 GMT -5
While it's funny, I don't think it's accurate to say things like "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." It's unfair to religious people to assume that they know better, but they're just choosing to ignore the lack of evidence and believe anyways because they want to. Doing that is almost the same as the person earlier who said that atheists know there's a god but choose not to acknowledge him. Atheists and agnostics shouldn't doubt the dedication of theist' belief, we have no reason to assume they don't believe their point of view to be valid from an intellectual standpoint.
I think, ultimately, the crux of the debate is whether or not faith is a valid means of knowing or believing in something. I would argue that, since faith is belief not based or dependent upon evidence, people can use faith as a means to believe absolutely anything. If faith allows you to believe anything, then it is incredibly unreliable, which in turn makes it an entirely invalid basis for any claim or belief.
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Post by lovegrenade on Jun 26, 2008 14:21:38 GMT -5
While it's funny, I don't think it's accurate to say things like "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." It's unfair to religious people to assume that they know better, but they're just choosing to ignore the lack of evidence and believe anyways because they want to. Doing that is almost the same as the person earlier who said that atheists know there's a god but choose not to acknowledge him. Atheists and agnostics shouldn't doubt the dedication of theist' belief, we have no reason to assume they don't believe their point of view to be valid from an intellectual standpoint. I think, ultimately, the crux of the debate is whether or not faith is a valid means of knowing or believing in something. I would argue that, since faith is belief not based or dependent upon evidence, people can use faith as a means to believe absolutely anything. If faith allows you to believe anything, then it is incredibly unreliable, which in turn makes it an entirely invalid basis for any claim or belief. I'm not trying to say that they are ignoring what they know, but I do believe that they actively ignore information that could somehow affect their "faith". By using the "faith" argument and not using evidence; a parent can force a child to believe absolutely anything. It's sad really... |
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Post by Zig on Jun 26, 2008 14:43:24 GMT -5
I don't necessarily disagree with that, although the word "actively" makes me a bit nervous. I think they are avoiding or devaluing evidence and information in a more automatic, subconscious way. Human brains are designed to look for confirming rather than counter evidence, so when you see yourself as being set on one side of a debate it's really quite natural to make attempts at rationalizing and overcoming any criticisms, even when they might be valid. Everyone does it. It's especially likely to happen if you've been raised within a religion, because then you see your position as the rightful default.
I would say that it's very rare for a religious person to consciously choose to ignore information because they are scared that it might harm their ability to hold religious beliefs.
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Post by cassierae on Jun 27, 2008 10:44:26 GMT -5
Relying on faith is what a lot of people do. Thats the thing that keeps them hanging on is faith in God. I've known a lot of people (As an atheist/individual I attended Bible Study with my ex, who knew I didn't believe but I went along with him) who close their eyes and think anything that doesn't follow their guidelines is bad or unholy. I could not BELIEVE what these people talked about! I actually had to go into the bathroom because their views on the world were so wrapped up in "God made this and wanted them to do that" was so far fetched I had to stop myself from an outburst. I don't remember what the topics were but I remember having to be told to be quiet. I guess I just have a natural curiosity and realistic view of the world and universe.
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Post by lovegrenade on Jun 27, 2008 11:31:30 GMT -5
Relying on faith is what a lot of people do. Thats the thing that keeps them hanging on is faith in God. I've known a lot of people (As an atheist/individual I attended Bible Study with my ex, who knew I didn't believe but I went along with him) who close their eyes and think anything that doesn't follow their guidelines is bad or unholy. I could not BELIEVE what these people talked about! I actually had to go into the bathroom because their views on the world were so wrapped up in "God made this and wanted them to do that" was so far fetched I had to stop myself from an outburst. I don't remember what the topics were but I remember having to be told to be quiet. I guess I just have a natural curiosity and realistic view of the world and universe. I am often amazed by religious discussion amongst biblical literalists, but my trip to the Creation Museum in Kentucky definitely takes the cake as the saddest/most ridiculous thing that I have witnessed since accepting the fact that I am an Atheist. At first it was hilarious to see the completely unscientific plaques that "explained" the equally hilarious displays. Then I started to notice that hundreds of kids were in there, being brainwashed to believe that nonsense. I heard some kids ask some very intelligent questions only to have them shot down with answers like "because the bible said so". I wanted to throw up it was so effing sad. Now, I often find my self thinking about all of the brilliant young minds that will never pursue scientific discoveries because they were brainwashed into Young Earth "Science". |
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Post by providencecrow on Jun 27, 2008 16:35:25 GMT -5
I wanted to throw up it was so effing sad. Now, I often find my self thinking about all of the brilliant young minds that will never pursue scientific discoveries because they were brainwashed into Young Earth "Science". Talk amongst yourselves, ill give you a topic. Pseudo-Science is neither pseudo nor science...discuss. |
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Post by Mad Dog on Jun 28, 2008 10:45:52 GMT -5
Question? How many of you have watched the Histroy Channel show "The Universe" this could very well answer many many questions on both side of this arguement. I consider myself an agnostic simply because I feel that I can not impericaly say that there is or is not a God or gods. I am 41 years old and have had ample time too have been on both sides of this fence. For about 5 years in my early 30's i was a "born again Christian", attending church very regularly and incesently reading the bible 5 or 6 times cover to cover. Apparantly my seed was sown in rocky soil because my spirituality withered and died a few years ago. Now i'm sure there are a few of you out there ( and by few i mean alot) who proberbly think I'm going to hell in a hand basket, but those five years i spent as a honest yearning praying christian really was an attempt to beat down my real self and in the end gave me a Huge identity crisis, which inturn lead to me to my old way of life. Am I happier I think so. At least I don't feel so guilty all the time.
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oldsquid
Eric Zane's huge nose
Posts: 48
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Post by oldsquid on Jun 28, 2008 12:44:04 GMT -5
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nurveen
Bob and Tom's fake laughing
Life is great, and getting even better
Posts: 34
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Post by nurveen on Jun 28, 2008 15:35:32 GMT -5
What to say about either side. Everyone has his or her own point of view of things. I really don't know what to believe anymore. I do know one thing is that people need something to believe in and if it is God or the big Bang then to each their own. I would like to believe that there is a God and there is a better place to go. Because life here on earth can be a very sad place.
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Post by mikeoxhard on Jun 29, 2008 19:12:35 GMT -5
I believe that religion was created at a time when people needed to be controlled.
We still need it. I consider myself to be agnositc, but have nothing but respect for ordinary religious people (not extremists) who wish to follow the laws of the bible. I think this because it still keeps control, and in an overpopulated society it is important that people be under control. Control being people commiting 'sins' but keeping it mostly under the radar.
You would be surprised at the dirty secrets of those who consider themselves devoted. Asking for forgiveness and believing you have been forgiven allows you to not go crazy.
It's easier for the simple minded to believe then to actually think about how things got here, for the undereducated it can be a scary place.
I think that we are not meant to know why we are here. Just live your life and roll with it, too much time wasted on trying to justify your life. We are so insignificant compared to the entire universe and those beyond, it's mind boggling. It must be a human trait to think we are so important.
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Post by cassierae on Jun 30, 2008 10:51:05 GMT -5
Mikeoxhard, I agree with you. There's always been a need to be controlled. Religion, laws, government. Maybe without it people think we will go crazy and there will be mass chaos.
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Post by providencecrow on Jun 30, 2008 18:32:44 GMT -5
I do know one thing is that people need something to believe in and if it is God or the big Bang then to each their own. Actually I don't need to believe in anything. If something came out tomorrow totally disproving the big bang then as long as there is evidence to prove it that's all that is needed. It doesn't really matter where we came from or what happens after death, you're here now and that's the important part. Worrying too much about either is just a waste of time in my opinion. I just take the evidence as it comes about and use that as the grand explanation of the universe. I think the main problem is most people aren't comfortable with "I don't know" as an answer to a lot of things. I know plenty of christians who believe in the big bang and what have you but instead of just answering "I don't know" to what came before the big bang they just refer to "Well that was god, the big bang was his creation". I guess i just dont understand how it's not viable to use "I don't know" as an answer just because we have not been able to figure it out yet, and instead need to fill in the blanks with some deity. |
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Post by Zig on Jul 1, 2008 4:59:18 GMT -5
I believe that religion was created at a time when people needed to be controlled. We still need it. I consider myself to be agnositc, but have nothing but respect for ordinary religious people (not extremists) who wish to follow the laws of the bible. I think this because it still keeps control, and in an overpopulated society it is important that people be under control. Control being people commiting 'sins' but keeping it mostly under the radar. You would be surprised at the dirty secrets of those who consider themselves devoted. Asking for forgiveness and believing you have been forgiven allows you to not go crazy. It's easier for the simple minded to believe then to actually think about how things got here, for the undereducated it can be a scary place. If this is true, then how come countries with higher rates of religiosity aren't any more orderly than other, more secular countries? Religion isn't exactly bringing a hell of a lot of order to the middle east now, is it? In some cases, religion provides the only means to draw a line between one group of people and another, and ultimately does nothing more than fuel the conflict and disorder. This whole concept of religion being necessary is groundless, and it's often propagated based on the entirely false notions that morality comes from religion and religious people are any more moral than nonreligious people. Your claim that believing a deity has forgiven you for your sins allows people to avoid going crazy is also ridiculous. Once again, religious people aren't any less likely to go crazy than those who are nonreligious. If anything, some strains of religion have reputations for promoting unhealthy guilt in their followers. Besides that, your shot at theists needing religion because they are "simple minded" is offensive and shows a real lack of understanding on your part. So much for you having "nothing but respect" for religious people. |
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killerb
Bob and Tom's fake laughing
Posts: 36
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Post by killerb on Jul 7, 2008 20:00:57 GMT -5
You know what, the churchies will not convince the atheists and the atheist will not convince the churchies but if you bible thumpers would like to waste your lives writing checks to jesus claus then that is your god given right (get it...LOL)
Keep your beleifs in your church and your home, don't knock on my door trying to sell me your god so you can get a few bucks in the collection plate.
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oldsquid
Eric Zane's huge nose
Posts: 48
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Post by oldsquid on Jul 7, 2008 22:46:35 GMT -5
No, no...I mean each faith hasn't changed their views, whereas science has. Obviously the various faiths have different philosophies. Sure faiths have changed, some Jews became Christian, some Cathloics became Lutheran, some Christians became Muslim. Faiths are evlove, but they are slower to do so than most societies. |
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Post by 38DoubleDelicious on Jul 8, 2008 1:05:14 GMT -5
I really don't have anything new to add to this topic (other than the fact that I just wanted to post again.. I need a life.) I have seen both sides of the fence, being married to preachers son has given me a look at the Christian side. And coming from a home where Christianity wasn't talked about has given me a look at that side. I can honestly say I'm not quite sure I believe in all that Christian jazz and what not.
Far more often than not I have witnessed these so called "Christians" judge and condemn others who don't believe what they believe, just for having their own opinions. Isn't that the very same thing they preach at you about in church? Judge not, lest you be judged.. Now I'm not saying being Christian is bad or wrong in any way, but doesn't it seem kinda two faced to sit in church and proclaim your life to someone who is to be the only one who can judge you. And go out and chastise others for not believing in someone who may or may not have existed?
I other the other hand am not pro Atheist either (not to say I'm against it). But I have seen enough "Sunday Christians" to know that if thats what Christianity is made up of, then count me out. I have no problems with believing maybe there could be a higher power, but I'm not so sure I want to put all my eggs in one basket yet.
Anyway thats just my incoherent rambling thoughts
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Zee
Banned For Life
100%
I like Gouda.
Posts: 316
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Post by Zee on Jul 10, 2008 10:05:05 GMT -5
I really don't have anything new to add to this topic (other than the fact that I just wanted to post again.. I need a life.) I have seen both sides of the fence, being married to preachers son has given me a look at the Christian side. And coming from a home where Christianity wasn't talked about has given me a look at that side. I can honestly say I'm not quite sure I believe in all that Christian jazz and what not. Far more often than not I have witnessed these so called "Christians" judge and condemn others who don't believe what they believe, just for having their own opinions. Isn't that the very same thing they preach at you about in church? Judge not, lest you be judged.. Now I'm not saying being Christian is bad or wrong in any way, but doesn't it seem kinda two faced to sit in church and proclaim your life to someone who is to be the only one who can judge you. And go out and chastise others for not believing in someone who may or may not have existed? I other the other hand am not pro Atheist either (not to say I'm against it). But I have seen enough "Sunday Christians" to know that if thats what Christianity is made up of, then count me out. I have no problems with believing maybe there could be a higher power, but I'm not so sure I want to put all my eggs in one basket yet. Anyway thats just my incoherent rambling thoughts My personal belief... The "Sunday Christian", the Atheist, non-judgmental Christians, and I myself have all sinned and will continue to sin. The wages of sin is eternal death. So am I judging others, admitting that I will be judged, or all of the above? |
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Post by scooterfanatic on Jul 23, 2008 17:36:01 GMT -5
I've always wondered - if people evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys? Humans didn't evolve from modern monkeys. No biologist in the history of science has ever stated such a thing. Humans and monkeys have a common ancestor. |
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