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Post by Fistor on Jul 16, 2008 7:19:37 GMT -5
Side note, how many christians do you think have read the bible and know it's origins? One of the reasons I fell from religion was because the people that preached the loudest were the most corrupt (ex. Rev. Al Sharpton) and didn't seem to have a sence of true faith. I think faith in a higher power has to be generated from within before any preaching can take hold. In other words, the faithless can't be preached into believing. IMO, of course. |
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Post by toddlerfondler on Jul 16, 2008 8:27:51 GMT -5
They can be scared into action under the vale of faith though. Look at Iraq, we were stuffed full of fear and then lead in the wrong direction. Bush's strongest supporters are the evangelicals.
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Post by Fistor on Jul 16, 2008 8:29:09 GMT -5
They can be scared into action under the vail of faith though. Possibly, but I don't think fear can really change your heart. |
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Post by toddlerfondler on Jul 16, 2008 8:32:28 GMT -5
Man's heart is naturaly corrupt. It's faith that is suposed to lead us in the right direction. So when a false prophet appeals to our baser instincts for revenge and fear it's no longer faith that is guiding us.
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Post by toddlerfondler on Jul 16, 2008 8:33:41 GMT -5
A true Christian leader would never take up arms agianst another man.
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Post by toddlerfondler on Jul 16, 2008 8:37:51 GMT -5
People don't want Christianity, they only want the parts they like and not the ones they don't. Who would walk into a furnace like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? Who would lay their lives down? People have decided that God cares about sporting events and should never require anything painful from them. Fear has replaced faith.
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Zee
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Post by Zee on Jul 16, 2008 11:47:26 GMT -5
A true Christian leader would never take up arms agianst another man. Does that mean you don't consider Old Testament leaders as Christians because they were before Christ so just Jews at that point? |
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Post by toddlerfondler on Jul 16, 2008 14:01:42 GMT -5
I mean that people today consider them selfs Christians when there actions speak differently. I doubt Old Testament leaders thought of them selfs as Christians because the word hadn't been created yet.
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Post by Zee on Jul 16, 2008 15:51:32 GMT -5
I mean that people today consider them selfs Christians when there actions speak differently. I doubt Old Testament leaders thought of them selfs as Christians because the word hadn't been created yet. Right the term Christian was not around till well after Jesus was crucified. I understand that. I also agree that Christians sin as well. All sin and fall short of the glory of God. Because of that sin Christians deserve to pay the price of eternal death condemned in hell. I'm trying to understand the statement you made earlier... A true Christian leader would never take up arms agianst another man. |
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Post by speedbump on Jul 16, 2008 16:06:56 GMT -5
I mean that people today consider them selfs Christians when there actions speak differently. I doubt Old Testament leaders thought of them selfs as Christians because the word hadn't been created yet. Right the term Christian was not around till well after Jesus was crucified. I understand that. I also agree that Christians sin as well. All sin and fall short of the glory of God. Because of that sin Christians deserve to pay the price of eternal death condemned in hell. I'm trying to understand the statement you made earlier... A true Christian leader would never take up arms agianst another man. I think he's saying that Jesus talked about "turning the other cheek", he was a total pacifist. If a Christian leader wanted to act like a true follower of Christ, he would act in the same way. |
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Post by Zee on Jul 16, 2008 16:16:47 GMT -5
Right the term Christian was not around till well after Jesus was crucified. I understand that. I also agree that Christians sin as well. All sin and fall short of the glory of God. Because of that sin Christians deserve to pay the price of eternal death condemned in hell. I'm trying to understand the statement you made earlier... I think he's saying that Jesus talked about "turning the other cheek", he was a total pacifist. If a Christian leader wanted to act like a true follower of Christ, he would act in the same way. Do you think that Jesus was talking about all use of force or violence? Maybe there are a lot of Christian leaders being bitch slapped. If so, I agree... Jesus says turn your cheek and take another. |
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Post by toddlerfondler on Jul 17, 2008 6:53:21 GMT -5
Yes he was talking about any type of persecution, violence, and aggression.
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Post by Zee on Jul 17, 2008 7:01:20 GMT -5
Yes he was talking about any type of persecution, violence, and aggression. I know you don't believe that is absolute. If someone breaks into your house and tries to rape your wife you don't say here take my daughter too. I guess what I'm trying to understand is where do you draw the line for a Christian leader? Either that or what specific issue do you have a problem with as far as Christian leaders? |
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Post by toddlerfondler on Jul 17, 2008 8:54:48 GMT -5
Jesus was dressed with a crown of thorns, stabbed with a spear, and crucified and never once raised a hand. If your wife is a Christian she knows that God will protect her. Sometimes we must endure hardships but that doesn't mean that hardships give you a reason to stray from the path of Christ.
There is no line,
That's the point I'm making, man decided there was a line and now that there's a line you get to decide where you want to place it. I'm aware that this is an absolution of the idea but my problem is with people that don't even try to push the "line" back as far as possible. Christianity is about TRYING to be as Christ-like as possible, so you should be making every attempt to deal with any situation with compassion and love.
The people that profess their Christianity then start wars with out exhausting any and all efforts are hypocrites.
Christians that think prosecuting people with different views is their right are hypocrites.
Christians that goto church every Sunday to feel good about them selfs then judge the people around them are hypocrites.
I'm not a Christian, so yes I would kill someone raping my wife. My problem is when Christian talk down to atheists from their high horse when a very few percent of them actually lives a Christian lifestyle.
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Post by ratrad on Jul 17, 2008 9:23:32 GMT -5
Jesus was dressed with a crown of thorns, stabbed with a spear, and crucified and never once raised a hand. If your wife is a Christian she knows that God will protect her. Sometimes we must endure hardships but that doesn't mean that hardships give you a reason to stray from the path of Christ. There is no line, That's the point I'm making, man decided there was a line and now that there's a line you get to decide where you want to place it. I'm aware that this is an absolution of the idea but my problem is with people that don't even try to push the "line" back as far as possible. Christianity is about TRYING to be as Christ-like as possible, so you should be making every attempt to deal with any situation with compassion and love. The people that profess their Christianity then start wars with out exhausting any and all efforts are hypocrites. Christians that think prosecuting people with different views is their right are hypocrites. Christians that goto church every Sunday to feel good about them selfs then judge the people around them are hypocrites. I'm not a Christian, so yes I would kill someone raping my wife. My problem is when Christian talk down to atheists from their high horse when a very few percent of them actually lives a Christian lifestyle. Excellent response! |
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Post by Zee on Jul 17, 2008 9:27:50 GMT -5
Jesus was dressed with a crown of thorns, stabbed with a spear, and crucified and never once raised a hand. If your wife is a Christian she knows that God will protect her. Sometimes we must endure hardships but that doesn't mean that hardships give you a reason to stray from the path of Christ. There is no line, That's the point I'm making, man decided there was a line and now that there's a line you get to decide where you want to place it. I'm aware that this is an absolution of the idea but my problem is with people that don't even try to push the "line" back as far as possible. Christianity is about TRYING to be as Christ-like as possible, so you should be making every attempt to deal with any situation with compassion and love. The people that profess their Christianity then start wars with out exhausting any and all efforts are hypocrites. Christians that think prosecuting people with different views is their right are hypocrites. Christians that goto church every Sunday to feel good about them selfs then judge the people around them are hypocrites. I'm not a Christian, so yes I would kill someone raping my wife. My problem is when Christian talk down to atheists from their high horse when a very few percent of them actually lives a Christian lifestyle. Thats definitely the clarification that I was looking for. I may not agree with everything you said but +1 for having good logic behind your original statement. |
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Post by toddlerfondler on Jul 17, 2008 14:46:20 GMT -5
Sometimes i forget everyone else isn't inside my head and I start arguments halfway though.  And one other thing why dose spell check make me capitalize Christians but not atheists? I mean just because I think this world is all we have doesn't me I don't want a capital A! |
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Post by Zee on Jul 17, 2008 14:49:28 GMT -5
Sometimes i forget everyone else isn't inside my head and I start arguements halfway though. Its all good. It would have been a waste not to hear the entire argument though. |
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Post by toddlerfondler on Jul 17, 2008 14:51:27 GMT -5
You respond too fast, I write, post, reread then edit. By then you've responded!@
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Post by Zee on Jul 18, 2008 9:44:27 GMT -5
Sometimes i forget everyone else isn't inside my head and I start arguments halfway though. And one other thing why dose spell check make me capitalize Christians but not atheists? I mean just because I think this world is all we have doesn't me I don't want a capital A! I believe Christian is capitalized because it is derived from a proper noun. |
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Post by kaboobie92 on Jul 18, 2008 12:53:38 GMT -5
A true Christian leader would never take up arms agianst another man. If this is true, then why would GOD have commanded the Israelites into violence in the Old Testament? I realize that they weren't "christians" but they followed the word of GOD, and if anything were more strict because the great sacrifice had not been made yet. To say that any violence is un-Christian is wrong. Sometimes its necessary, although I do agree that it should only be used when necessary and that the US has become to much of a "world police". Although I am a die hard conservative, I believe that America should keep its nose out of other people's problems and worry about our own country before venturing out into the world. However, in a case like Afghanistan (And you could argue for Iraq), we are protecting our nation, and staying on the offensive to prevent the terrorists from being able to regroup and cause harm on our nation again. But going back to Christianity, you can't dismiss all the events in the Old Testament because they happened before the Crucifixtion (sp?). There are things that changed afterward (i.e. no more sacrifices etc.) but I think we can learn alot from the Old Testament and apply it to how we live now. |
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Post by Zee on Jul 18, 2008 13:00:53 GMT -5
A true Christian leader would never take up arms agianst another man. If this is true, then why would GOD have commanded the Israelites into violence in the Old Testament? I realize that they weren't "christians" but they followed the word of GOD, and if anything were more strict because the great sacrifice had not been made yet. To say that any violence is un-Christian is wrong. Sometimes its necessary, although I do agree that it should only be used when necessary and that the US has become to much of a "world police". Although I am a die hard conservative, I believe that America should keep its nose out of other people's problems and worry about our own country before venturing out into the world. However, in a case like Afghanistan (And you could argue for Iraq), we are protecting our nation, and staying on the offensive to prevent the terrorists from being able to regroup and cause harm on our nation again. But going back to Christianity, you can't dismiss all the events in the Old Testament because they happened before the Crucifixtion (sp?). There are things that changed afterward (i.e. no more sacrifices etc.) but I think we can learn alot from the Old Testament and apply it to how we live now. There must be some example in the New Testament to support your argument. The only that I can think of is Jesus overturning the tables and what not in the temple. Can you apply that example to your argument or find some other New Testament support? I know there is an endless amount of support in the Old Testament. |
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Post by kaboobie92 on Jul 18, 2008 13:05:52 GMT -5
If this is true, then why would GOD have commanded the Israelites into violence in the Old Testament? I realize that they weren't "christians" but they followed the word of GOD, and if anything were more strict because the great sacrifice had not been made yet. To say that any violence is un-Christian is wrong. Sometimes its necessary, although I do agree that it should only be used when necessary and that the US has become to much of a "world police". Although I am a die hard conservative, I believe that America should keep its nose out of other people's problems and worry about our own country before venturing out into the world. However, in a case like Afghanistan (And you could argue for Iraq), we are protecting our nation, and staying on the offensive to prevent the terrorists from being able to regroup and cause harm on our nation again. But going back to Christianity, you can't dismiss all the events in the Old Testament because they happened before the Crucifixtion (sp?). There are things that changed afterward (i.e. no more sacrifices etc.) but I think we can learn alot from the Old Testament and apply it to how we live now. There must be some example in the New Testament to support your argument. The only that I can think of is Jesus overturning the tables and what not in the temple. Can you apply that example to your argument or find some other New Testament support? I know there is an endless amount of support in the Old Testament. I would put a lot of research into it and find specific verses but I dont really have the time right now and I'm at work and don't have access to a BIBLE. I do agree with the story of Jesus overturning the tables as being a good example. I can't think of many examples that would be evident in the new testament. One that I think may work involves Revelation. In the end it is a battle between God and satan (armageddon). GOD in all his power could have chosen a different way to defeat the devil. I dont know if this would work, but it's the first thing that came to mind when you asked for an example. I do however believe there is a fine line between violence, and violence that advances the Kingdom. |
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Post by toddlerfondler on Jul 18, 2008 13:31:37 GMT -5
My belief is that the bible is a work of fiction based loosely on fact. Christian belief is that one should treat others as they would want to be treated. GOD vs the Devil in revelations is hardly the place to look for examples of how man should treat man. If anything the fact that it's hard to find condoned violence in the bible should be proof enough that it should be avoided at all costs.
It brings me back to why i disagree with Christianity so much and thats because it's bent to mean what you want it to mean. Example: There are two references in the bible where Jesus says about the Romans who would take in little boys and molest them "Man should not lay with another man". This addresses two things pedophilia, which the church has some dabbling in, and homosexuality. So look at the stances they have taken against these two things. There are still clergy serving that have been accused of pedophilia but homosexuals are condemned. If God wanted you to persecute homosexuals wouldn't he have made an inclusion in his rules for that? "Honor thy mother and father unless they're gay" ... What's happening to the gay community is persecution.
The gay issue feels like just another one of those personal prejudices clothed in faith and yet another on the list of corrupted features of christian faith.
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Post by kaboobie92 on Jul 18, 2008 13:34:25 GMT -5
So what are your thoughts on creation, because that could have a large effect on your opinions?
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Post by wienerpoopie on Jul 18, 2008 13:37:29 GMT -5
So what are your thoughts on creation, because that could have a large effect on your opinions? My Mom and Dad created me, and you? |
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Post by kaboobie92 on Jul 18, 2008 13:37:31 GMT -5
The thing that trips up most people is that Christianity isn't about how often you pray, or how often you go to Church, or what denomination you are. Its about a personal relationship with the Creator, and I'm not sure what you believe as far as if you are agnostic etc. but i don't see how you can deny the existence of GOD. The premise of Christianity is a pursuit of the likeness of HIM, but it almost sounds like you are saying that because Christians arent perfect that it ruins the validity of the religion. There is sin in everyone, even Christians (obviously), but its about the forgivness and the pursuit to rid yourself of sin that makes people act like Christians.
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Post by kaboobie92 on Jul 18, 2008 13:37:59 GMT -5
So what are your thoughts on creation, because that could have a large effect on your opinions? My Mom and Dad created me, and you? You know what I meant, as far as creation of the universe (earth). |
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Post by wienerpoopie on Jul 18, 2008 13:45:08 GMT -5
Atmospheric collisions
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Post by plungerhand on Jul 18, 2008 13:46:26 GMT -5
Big Bang.... Religion was invented to control the masses.
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